Bc1991-10-08

Billy Corgan
Date	1991-10-08
Venue	Unknown
Location	Chicago, IL, US
Venue Type	Unknown
Capacity	Unknown
Lineup	Corgan
Order of Bands	Billy Corgan
Surfaced Recordings
AUD #1
Source	AUD
Format	ANA
Equipment	Unknown
Length	93m

Setlist

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Set:

• (interview)

Banter

Interviewer: Check, check, don't quit on me now, please. Please. Thank you

Billy: I don't know what, my friend's band is going to be the first band and we were discussing what band should play second and she was saying maybe ???? could do the show. How are they live?

Interviewer: Really, really good. I mean, it's been really hard for them to make the transition between playing in someone's basement and going to live but they played at the metro they open for Blake babies while you guys were gone and they were really good I was really surprised because I had never seen them in a place bigger than like the Uptown Bar up in Minneapolis

Billy: played there once

Interviewer: I think I saw you guys last year when you played in the entry just playing some street Like the night they got in their car accident, I think. That was last September. That was when the magazine had just started out, I think.

Billy: We’re all so fucked up.

Interviewer: Really? This is what it looks like now. You might want to take one.

Billy: Well, you know what? I don't know if, I can't remember the girl's name who started this.

Interviewer: Anne. She was my roommate for a while.

Billy: Um, and you know this really long interview with her and I don't know if they even ever came out. Did it ever come out?

Interviewer: I don't know why it never ran, but it didn't run.

Billy: She told me it was like, first she told me it was going to run this one month and she said, I saw her when we played that show and she said, she said, um, it'll be in the next month's issue. And I never heard about it so I assume it never came out.

Interviewer: It didn't run. I think what happened was when she interviewed you the first time, or when she interviewed you that time. She was working for another magazine, she said, and then that folded and then by September she had started up another one of her own. And I met her and said, I'll help you out.

Billy: I think it's a really good magazine. I was just disappointed we didn't get in it.

Interviewer: Yeah, well, that was, I told her that she, it would be in her best interest to run it. This was even before you guys, I knew that anything was going to be happening on Caroline or anything. It just never ran, and so now it's kind of like, now I feel like it's kind of a bandwagon thing. You know, like everybody has stuff on Smashing Pumpkins. I guess we have to too, but.

Billy: That's a, believe me, that's a weird position to be in.

Interviewer: Mm-hmm, I'm sure.

Waitress: Are you hungry?

Billy: I'm, I'm, I'm kind of, I'm, are you?

Interviewer: I'm not hungry. I was just gonna get some of the bread. I'd like, I would like, uh.???? is the best. Can I have an ashtray too ????

Billy: I want to get a house salad. What kind of dressing do you have? Only French. Only French? I guess I'll be having a French dressing.

Interviewer: But anyway, yeah, so you guys got a lot of press, and so she was kind of like, you're in Chicago. You can talk to them.

Billy: But before that, we got like zero press.

Interviewer: Well, nobody really big has done a big feature on you either, which I mean, I was really glad that I was going to have a chance to talk to you for an extended period of time, or at least know how to get a hold of you if I needed anything else, because You guys deserve a lot more than what you've gotten.

Billy: Well, I think people have been kind of, uh... Weird thing I think about us is like... I mean, this seems to be like an underlying tone between a lot of the press we've gotten. It's like...It doesn't seem to be a question of whether or not we're good. I just think that people really question from what point of the... I've had interviews come out and ask me directly, what angle are you coming from? And it's like, all of them. You can't... The Smashing Pumpkins wasn't conceived to be like other bands to start with. Ultimately it is music and so it's comparable in a sense that it's music. As far as like our philosophies and why we do what we do and from what angle we're coming from, I think it's really different than most bands. Because of that, I think people have a really hard time trying to, you know, it's not easy to say, oh, I can relate to this. You know, it's like a band like Mudhoney or something, it's really easy to understand where they're coming from. So you judge it. on the merit of what it's trying to be.

Interviewer: Do you think that your band is pretty much a showcase for your work? Just yours? Your songwriting, your arranging, your vocal technique, whatever. I mean it looks to me like you pretty much have your hands in all aspects of everything down to promotion and production and artwork and you know, do you feel?

Billy: The thing is is um...same type of context. I mean I've had my hand in everything, there's no denying that. But there's something that a band, you know, as opposed to like say I just wrote songs and then I have these people play with me. There's something that a band brings and there's a sense of unity and spirit, a collective spirit that adds some kind of intangible ingredient that I could never conceive of on my own. And I have this really good friend who's uh... He was the leader of the band Skunk, if you know that band. Interviewer: One of the Mats?

Billy: Yeah, and Sweeney. And he was talking to another friend of mine and she told me, she said, you know, he said that he knows of no other band that operates like the Pumpkins operates. Most people from the outside kind of perceive it as this fun golly dictator type thing, but for someone to actually come and be around us and see how it actually works, it's not like that at all. It's very much my vision, it's very much my push, but I will not diminish the importance and the contribution of the people in my band. I mean, it is my band, I started it, I named it, but it's like, I mean, how do you explain to someone who...from the outside, you know, it's like, it's this precious thing that's kind of really hard to explain.

Interviewer: I dig with that, I mean, Anne and I started that. I mean, it's the same thing. You're really protective, I think, of, I mean, that's what I gather from you. You don't come, I mean, I think the press is kind of slanted toward making you out to be this singer, songwriter, guitar hero kind of dude that has these people around him. They're at your back and call, and you run the practices, and you know, whatever. I mean, I think they're kind of slanted toward that, but I can, like when I first read what you said in Spin, you know, like when you were like on Give a Fuck.

All the bands in Chicago told me what I didn't want to sound like and all that other stuff. First I was kind of like, what an asshole, but then I was like, but I get it. It's like all the press that I read and all these press kits shows me what I don't want my magazine to look like. It's the same thing. I mean, I had to just put it in my own context to really understand. Billy: Musicians are people in bands, whatever you want to call them. The majority of them are really concerned what people think of them, how they're going to perceive their opinions, their dress. And my whole life has been one series of events after another where I've had to reestablish and re-prove the identity of personality, which is not an easy personality to get through life. `And it just come down to a choice between being a fucking pussy or just being the person that I am. And I thought, you know what, people are going to slag us anyway, they're going to question our credibility and all these other things which we're getting like every day. And so why not? Why not just stand up and say what I want to say? The first interviews that I did I held my tongue and I read them and I thought, you know, you're a fucking pussy. And she said, you know, I don't think it would be a better world if everyone kind of spoke their mind.

Interviewer: Why do you think, when I moved down here, you know, I'm waving this CD going, this is the best thing I've heard all year, blah, blah, blah, you know, and everybody was like, one of the girls I work with just kind of, I mean, I hate her. She, she, it was like my first week at work, my boss had just gotten fired, the person who hired me had just gotten fired. I don't like the label, but I, you know, I just wanted to see what it was like. I want to be a writer, but I just wanted to get in to see what was going on, you know, in that end. She stands there with her hands on her hips and she's like, don't you know that everybody in Chicago hates the smashing pumpkin? And I was like, like, I fucking care. I mean, why? Why is that? I mean, and it's not just from, like, she's like a metal chick, you know, she works at Medusa's and she's like a total, you know, whatever.

Billy: But you know what? Not everybody in Chicago hates a smashing pumpkin. Interviewer: I mean, that's the thing, but like a lot of the people that I've run into, a lot of scene people, you know, think kind of like, well, you know, yeah, whatever. But I was in Danny's one night and it came on, it was like, you know, one of your songs came on and it was like, it was perfect. And you know, I guess it's just beyond my realm. I don't understand, you know, if you like music, why can't you just say it if you like the kind of music? Or is it something that's happened in Chicago?

Interviewer: Well, it mainly stems from I was never a scene-ster. I was never in a punk rock band. My roots musically in Chicago don't go back to like 83. Like a lot of people, you know, like, you know, quote-unquote, the leading scenesters like, you know, Touch and Go people or Wax Tracks people. I wasn't a part of those scenes. Chicago in 84, 85 was completely vacant. And the only thing that was creating any interest locally was hardcore. Al Jurgensen got zero respect here. I mean, nobody cared. Nobody cared about Big Black. All the icons of the Chicago indie scene, nobody gave a fuck about them. When I was 17 and all the people that were my age, they didn't care about those bands. They were listening to The Cure and Echo and The Bunny Man. And I wasn't a part of that. I never felt a part of that. I moved to Florida in 86 and I had this band. The closest thing I ever came to was a punk kind of band. So when The Pumpkins came out and created like this immediate impression on people like Joe Shanahan, of people who had power as far as booking gigs and stuff. It was like, everyone was like, who the fuck is this band? I mean, for all intents and purposes, we were like a band from out of town, and people treated us like that. We got snubbed very early by a lot of local bands. People started dissing us, who'd never even seen us. And when you're young and you're trying to form something that's important to you and people are saying things about it. What's the first thing you're going to do? You're just going to back up against the wall even harder and tell everyone to fuck off. So we never play games with anybody and without anybody's help, except the people who, you know, could book shows, we managed to start drawing, you know, within a year and a half we were drawing 800 plus people. I mean, Urge Overkill is, you know, I'm not dissing them because I like them, even though they diss us all the time. I mean they're on their fourth album, you know, they can't consistently draw 800 people. So it was like, there was this immediate jealousy. Who the fuck is this band and why are they drawing these people? And I would look at it out in our crowd and there'd be yuppies from the suburbs and there'd be death chicks and there'd be rock dudes, you know. So it crossed all those boundaries and you couldn't classify us and every three months we were changing.

Interviewer: Do you feel some sort of satisfaction in that? It's a lot of that initial... I mean, people are dissing you harder now, I think, maybe, than they were before. Because of the success that you've enjoyed, but do you feel... I mean, when you come right down to it, the scene-sters and all the label people in this town don't really matter when you're drawing as many people as you draw. When you're getting tours like you guys are getting tours, and when you're getting courted by majors, where they're still gonna totally allow you creative control which a lot of bands can't speak for because they suck. You know? So it's kinda like, do you feel sort of any perverse sense of satisfaction or like I told you so or fuck you, you know? If you're so fucking great, then why are you guys still stuck in the Lounge Acts every third month, you know?

Billy: I'll tell you what. When we were here and we were competing directly against bands week after week, I felt that way. Now that I'm out in the real world and now I feel that our band is like part of a bigger community. I don't give a fuck. I have more important things to do with my life and my time to worry about what local scene star number seven thinks of us.

Interviewer: That's cool. Well, you don't, I mean, Chicago may be a big town, but it's a small scene. It really is. It's like Minneapolis. Yeah. A little different, but same thing, you know, when I first came here and I went out, I met everybody I needed to meet if I ever wanted to meet them in two nights. And it was like, you know, who cares? I don't know, because I was trying to get away from that when I was in Minneapolis, but I guess I thought that was kind of a stupid move. Going to wax tracks and expecting to just kind of blend into the woodwork, you know. But I was really a lot more interested in coming down here to get closer to the blues thing, to write about that, or to write about artists that were coming through that would normally be up in Minneapolis. You know, I have total easy access to Dave Turner, but who cares, you know. It's like the guy I've known for six years. I'm not going to interview him every day, you know. But, uh... So it's a weird town for that. I mean, and when you say Chicago band, or if somebody was saying, well, you know, there's Chicago band, I either draw a blank or think of Wax Tracks. I never even thought of TNG really as being a Chicago thing, ever. But I hear that all the time now that I'm here.

Billy: Yeah. Well, the past couple years, it's kind of grown. Interviewer: What do you do with your time besides music or is it pretty much a 24 hour day job?

Billy: I'm totally a freak.

Interviewer: Do you listen to a lot? I read somewhere you don't really listen to anything new.

Billy: I try not to. It influences me too much. Really? I just have to be realistic and admit it.

Interviewer: Well that's fabulous. Have you heard anything new that's cool that you like? Just by chance? Or do you go out? I mean, do you like go out and hang out at bars? Or do you pretty much stay out of the thing? Do people recognize you?

Billy: I pretty much stop going to bars. I go see band when I really want to see band. I'm not into the Rockstar trip, so I mean, I get recognized all the time now. It's nice, people are really nice and stuff, but... I just... It's not... It's not... It's got nothing to do with that as to why I don't go out. I just, um... It's really hard to explain. If you're really intent on making music that's going to be like real, real music, it takes a lot. It takes a lot of mental energy. And some of the best music that's coming out today, even though it's good and listenable, it's just fucking rehash. And I am really, really intenton redefining my little genre here.

Interviewer: Do you think for the next record, do you think it's going to be different from this one in terms of the sound? Are you going to go with the same producer? Billy: Mm-hmm.

Interviewer: He's great. His bands suck. His own bands suck, but he's really good. He's amazing. When you said in an interview or in a couple interviews that you threw your life into this last record and that it exhausted you, did he understand that? Like is he an artist from that standpoint where you, I mean you're totally, you're totally like feeling this whole project like everywhere.

Billy: I think he threw his life into it. As much as someone, you know, wasn't like we were up all night praying or anything. Interviewer: But he gets it.

Billy: He sacrifices his own personal comfort to make that record. We were putting in some really long, long days.

Interviewer: How long did it take you to record it?

Billy: It was two months in total. It was 40-something days or something like that. Something ridiculous over a four month span of time.

Interviewer: Had you spent time in a smart studio, it's like a cool studio, you may have been in there. Were you really familiar with all the...knobs and other stuff

Billy: Well, we'd actually recorded... We did our sub-pop single verse. I've been up there before. And we actually done 19 songs of demo at this guy's home studio. So I'd spent a lot of time in the studio. The knob part of it is not really important, you know. That's why you have someone like him.

Interviewer: How did you meet him? Billy: Mike Potential referred us to him. And he said, you really should go with Butch Vig, this is the guy for you. So when the Sub Pop single came up, we said, how about Butch Vig? And they were like, that's what Sub Pop was like, that's what we were thinking of. Sub Pop called Butch, we called Butch, it's just that simple. I mean, you know, from Butch's standpoint...I think what he really likes about the Pumpkins is that, I mean he's done a lot of bands like Laughing Haneys and stuff like that, Kill Dozer. And I mean, Butch is a sucker for melodies. Just look at his bands, that's kind of what they're based on, they're melodic bands. And I think with us he really enjoys the marriage of melody and power. That's... I think that's probably why he...Well, look at Nirvana.

Interviewer: It's a great record. Billy: It's a really great record.

Interviewer: Yours and theirs are probably, you know… Billy: And who'd have thought, you know, two years ago when Sub Pop was riding high, that the little melodic boys would be winning the war, you know? Interviewer: Right. Do you think... Nirvana is like an example of what I wanted to pose to you in terms of a major label deal. You know... I mean, what's it going to take? you know they got a huge advance for three records and they didn't, you know, to me they didn't really compromise anything, if anything they got a lot better and probably will continue to do so you know, I mean is that when you're talking to majors I mean have you gotten some really fucked up offers from people where they're just like you know they're trying to bind you into some like you know, wild contract.

Billy: Not anymore.

Interviewer: So you're pretty much able to call the shots.

Billy: Yeah.

Interviewer: So when you sign, are you going to sign? Who are you going to sign with? I don't like to talk. I never talk about business. OK. I just.

Interviewer: That's OK. I'm just curious. Because they got a pretty good deal with Geffen. Although, when I talk to their publicists, they're totally swamped. They don't even know what to do because it's selling so many records right now they can't really be effective, the publicity department. Yeah. Are you surprised at all your success? Are you like...

Billy: It's much more than I thought it would be. It doesn't surprise me that people like our record .I think a lot more people got it than I think would have gotten. It's a pretty dense record.

Interviewer: Very dense.

Billy: I think you can, you know, it's... I think, I mean, not to totally blow my own horn, but I think I never go too far into the point of... I think we're really good listeners. I think we're really good censors of our own music. I think we try to censor out a lot. I mean, like we have this little saying, this song's more fun to play than it is to listen to. And I think that we always, it's not so much like a, it's not so much like a thing like, you know, you're sitting around thinking what's somebody gonna wanna listen to. But you, I mean, for you to play something that is not going to take the listener with you, then you're wasting your time. I mean, there has to be a marriage of drawing someone in.

Interviewer: You mentioned that before when you said that all of a sudden you discovered that when it's a totally self-serving thing, that's not what it's all about. I think your record can probably be interpreted in a... you know, it's different for everybody who buys it, I think. And that's...you know like listening to a winger record is not going to call back any kind of memory to me at all but you know like listening to something like your record or the Nirvana record or or anything else that I've heard that it whumps

Billy: you you know it's um a lot of music presumes that the listener wants to be fed something as opposed to like a roller coaster ride or something I mean you look at a ride and you want to ride it because it looks enticing, and then the ride in itself is an experience, and you have to create that inducement to get the person onto the ride, you know? And that's really where it's at. That's why, you know, people put hooks in songs, you know? So that you'll hum them and you want to go put that song on again. It's just, you know, it's not a shameful thing to want to write something that somebody might want to listen to. Interviewer: What about the other members of the band? I mean, you guys all get along.

Billy: We get along better now than we did like a year ago.

Interviewer: How come you weren't getting along before? Or it wasn't as good as it was?

Billy: It was mostly frustration on my part because I really didn't feel they were understanding. I've taught a lot of philosophy to my band. I don't want that to sound scowly. I've constantly fed them this kind of dogma, pumpkin dogma, whatever you want to call it. Because I wanted, it was kind of like with the idea that if we could reach a point, we would reach a point, a plateau, like say we're at a plateau now, and rather than have the experiences that we've had point all into one direction, it would be the other way around. Our experiences would lead us outward. So I've always tried to put things in a context that would lend themselves to bigger and better experiences as the band went on, as opposed to, you know, like there's bands that back themselves into a corner with their music. They redefine what they do, but they redefine it to a point where they can't move from that point. And, you know...You know, a lot of people like, I've talked to a lot of people and said, you know, I saw you guys, you know, like two years ago and you really sucked. But you know, I mean, I'm not saying that we were, we weren't even good, but the people that liked us, I think, could understand the ambitiousness in what we were trying to do. We were trying to cover a lot of ground and where most bands just kind of latch on to one or two things and that's why it's easy for them to get good in a year or something. We were trying to do ten things. Now that we can do ten things, we're trying to do twenty. Interviewer: So, okay, so like what about...

Billy: I'm sorry, I'm answering questions that you haven't even asked me.

Interviewer: No, but that's good because it gives me more to think about. So like what about, I mean, say for example, Darcy, has her vision become your vision, or your vision become her vision as well?

Billy: I know the band members well enough to know their own personal slams. I would say, like Jimmy, the drummer's...vision is pretty much strictly relegated to his instrument. So over time his vision from his drumming is tied into the vision of the band. James is the furthest along as far as songwriting goes. And James has a very distinct personality. And what we're trying to do now is he's writing a bunch of new songs. He's finally starting to write. He's finally starting to contribute. Is, is walk the fence between his own identity and not have it be like, here's a James song. So there's a marriage there between his identity and what the band does. Because the scope of the band is wide enough that you can go out in different directions. Darcy, I'm not quite sure what her vision is of music. Darcy's the person I probably understand the least. Just in terms of what goes on inside her head. We have disagreements all the time just because we don't understand each other Musically, I don't I'm not I can't say whether she'll ever you know she's never written a song that I've heard so For all I know she's the greatest songwriter in the world. I don't mean that in a negative way. Just I don't know I really don't know I You know, It's just trying to establish an air of creative comfortability where someone can feel like they can be themselves. And I mean, we are definitely four distinct personalities and the longer we play the more those personalities emerge and only strengthen the vision and the unity of the band. I don't want, you know, three spineless fucks behind me. That's really lame. I used to scream at them because I'd look over at them in the middle of the gig and they'd look bored. you know this is their band too and they benefit and they make money from it.

Interviewer: So when you bring in a song like to a rehearsal or something I mean do you have the arrangement in your head can you hear it in your head?

Billy: Sometimes I can sometimes I just cant.

Interviewer: So do they do they help arrange do they pretty much do their own you bring in like a melody or something?

Billy: No most of the arrangements are high. Interviewer: You do the arrangements okay. Do you see yourself as some sort of like maverick or obviously you're very gifted if that's if what you're saying is true, you know, doing the songwriting and the lyrics and the arrangements and stuff, I mean, do you... Is that frustrating sometimes? Is that hard to live with?

Billy: That's what I was talking, that's why I like it. Yeah. Because, I mean, this sounds really weird to tell someone I don't know, but it's... To have all this energy and this vision and you're trying so hard to eek, you know what I mean? It's like...The Smashing Pumpkins have had one of the most successful independent albums of the last like five or six years. Most people would be resting on their laurels and patting themselves on the head. I'm doing exactly the opposite. I'm trying to rethink how I can push my band to its furthest, outermost boundary, not lose what we've established, but really break ground musically and really get beyond something. And you know, it's really frustrating to have this. I mean, because we got this momentum and there's power behind it and have this vision and this energy and then somebody just doesn't share that naturally. It's not even like they don't think, they don't agree with you. It's just not that natural spark to want to get out of bed and before you get dressed, pick up a guitar and play a play. Not everybody has that and the frustration came from wishing, wishing that people would be something that they weren't. And ever since I stopped wishing so hard that they would change and just accept them as the people they are and start to promote the strength that they do have, the whole chemistry in the band has changed. It's a lot more... I don't know, it's a lot more together.

Interviewer: So do you apply that philosophy to other people that you meet? I mean like your friends, your other friends who are artists, like maybe writers or painters, or even just people who have desk jobs. I mean... Do you get frustrated with them as well for not... I'm not talking about your musical vision here. It sounds like there's more behind. Music is like your vent or whatever.

Billy: Do I get frustrated with people in general?

Interviewer: Is it hard for you to understand, say, a total mainstream person? Or you go home, you go back to Glen Ellyn, or you go wherever, and these people are just so out of your realm, and it's not a bad thing. You don't look down on them, but...I mean, I can understand that. It's really hard when you have all that.

Billy: I've kept very much in touch with the person in me that's very normal. It's not that hard for me to relate. But when you're in that arena, that aesthetic artistic arena, that's a totally different... I mean, the normal human being in me is completely retarded. Because I've spent the last six, seven years of my life working on this, you know, this maniacal vision of mine Interviewer: When you started playing guitar, how old were you?

Billy: 15.

Interviewer: Okay, so you kind of avoided it until then I read because your dad, it was something that you associated with your dad.

Interviewer: Yeah, it was kind of a negative thing. So did you take lessons or did you teach yourself?

Billy: I taught myself.

Interviewer: So what did you listen to to teach yourself? I mean who?

Billy: Hendrix, Black Saturday, Judas Priest.

Interviewer: Do you think you're a good guitar player? Billy: I'm not as good a guitar player as I could be.

Interviewer: Are you a better songwriter than a guitar player? Billy: I don't look at it that way. It's hard because that's like apples and oranges. I play guitar... The style of guitar that I play influenced my songwriting. Well, now my songwriting influences the way that I play guitar. The two are symbiotically connected, but I spend so much time working on songs that my guitar playing has not reached the level that it could have had I solely concentrated on guitar. Interviewer: How about your voice ? Did you ever consider yourself a singer? Or were you... Did you ever plan on singing in your band?

Billy: No. I started singing strictly by... Not accident, but it took someone else prodding me. You know, the band that I had in 86, there was a guy in the band and he sang, and he said, you've got to sing. It's just really stupid that you don't sing. You can sing. Interviewer: Were you writing the songs for that band as well?

Billy: I was writing the music, but I wasn't writing the singing. And then that's when I started to write my own songs.That's what eventually divided that band because he had songs and I had songs and it just went like that.

Interviewer: Do you think, I mean, Do you think anybody else could sing your songs? Does anybody else in the band sing?

Billy: James sings. Darcy sings. Yeah, I mean Darcy, that's my, Daydream's my song. I don't think anybody else can sing my songs like the way that I sing them with the same kind of push and pull if that makes any sense to you. I mean, I don't have the strongest voice and I don't have the weakest voice. And I'm constantly kind of, you know, I don't know, I walk this line with my voice. So I don't think anyone could sing like I sing, because I think the way I sing is very unique, because my singing influences are zero.

Interviewer: You can tell.

Billy: Yeah, I mean, I just sing, I mean, this singing is the most natural thing that I do, because there's no influences, because I couldn't sing. If I could sing, like if I had this wonderful voice, who knows what I'd sing. Probably like Robert Plant or something.

Interviewer: It depends on what you consider a wonderful voice though, too.

Billy: Well, a four-octave range.

Interviewer: Well, for your...but the music that you write, I think your voice... I can't hear somebody like Robert Plant singing the songs that you guys play. Or Perry Farrell, or anybody else.

Billy: But it's like everything, you know, it's all grown together. My songwriting is grown as my singing is grown and it's only, you know, one thing is embellished the other and it's kind of like this give and take. But I think that I could write songs that other people could sing. I think I write good enough songs that you might, I mean, it's like daydreaming. You know, I have a demo of me singing that song and it's still a beautiful song, but she added something to it that I just don't have.

Interviewer: Do you think that ultimately in the future, Smashing Pumpkins are not gonna be the vehicle that you would wanna use? I mean, obviously you don't feel like you've peaked creatively. So like what...

Billy: I see, I definitely see a point where the band can't go on any further.

Interviewer: So did you just become a solo artist or would you go through the process again of finding people where the personalities clicked?

Billy: I've thought about that, you know, and it... I just think of how much communication, you know, like, it's like when you've had a boyfriend or a girlfriend for a long time and there's a lot of things you don't even have to say. There's a lot of body language that you understand, that if you met someone new you'd have to, you know, you'd feel like you have to explain yourself all the time. And I, boy, just the thought of having to go through that with new people would be really difficult because I have a great luxury in the fact that, you know, I have three people who think I'm kind of a goof, you know, they trust my instinctive nature. And it would be really hard for me to play with someone that didn't trust my instincts. Not to say that there aren't people who have different instincts that aren't correct for them, but this is the way that this situation worked out.

Interviewer: Did they trust you immediately? Or like were you... from what I've read or from what I understand, everybody kind of gradually came into the fold, you know, like when you first hooked up with James.

Billy: I think they trusted me up until a point. The way that I garnered this deep trust to convince people to change and alter their lives for this band was everything I ever said happened. I would say, we're going to do this, and we would do it, and we're going to do this, and then we're going to do this, and this, and it all happened, every bit of it. There's not one thing I've ever said that didn't happen.

Interviewer: So do they look to you for guidance I mean, like now that...

Billy: Well, it's kind of like, it's like one of those things, it's like no one even thinks about it anymore. Right. It's just the way that it is. Somebody from the outside goes, well, he makes all the decisions, but see, we, I mean, we, as a band, we discuss everything. We talk about everything. And plenty of times they disagree with me, and plenty of times I go, well, you're wrong, or I think you're wrong, and I'm right most of the time, and this is the way it's gonna be. And, I mean, it's just one of those weird things, it just works that way. other people it might not work, other personalities it does. We just have that weird combination of personalities and what were weaknesses when we were a year old are strengths now.

Interviewer: So would you continue your career as a solo artist then?

Billy: I really don't know. I have interest to do other... I mean, for me, it's like a baseball team or something, you know? You look at the park you play in, you know? And you pick your team according to the conditions, you know? And it's kind of like that. I mean, I've geared the smashing pumpkins to the strengths of the 4 people, you know, the drumming and the guitar playing and the songwriting. I mean, and I've steered away from other things, and it might be really cocky of me to think that I could do what I do in some other area and still pull it off as effectively as I pull what we do off. So, I don't know. I'm not sure I have the same kind of confidence. Like, every once in a while I've done gigs under the name of the Star Children, you know. We've done a couple gigs and the idea with the Star Children was it was my way to vent something else beyond the pumpkins and every gig is different.

Interviewer: So what is that, venting it beyond the pumpkins? Is it a different style of music?

Billy: Well we've done two gigs and we're probably going to do another gig in March and it's just like whatever genre I want to participate in. The first gig we played was like complete minimalistic, you know, like something like Velvet Underground-y, Feedback-y. two chord songs. And people loved it. People still come up to me and they don't even know I'm in the Pumpkins, they talk about that show. Next time we did, we did this kind of like fetus noise, no vocals, like soundtrack music. Everybody hated it, you know? But I enjoyed it because it was like doing something different. The next gig we're going to probably play is going to be something like kind of primal, screaming, like samples with rock you know, black Sabbath samples and funky drums.

Interviewer: So is that a Smashing Pumpkins lineup, but under a different name, or is it with different people?

Billy: It's whoever I want to be in it. Really? Yeah. There's about like ten people who are unofficially in the band, you know. Interviewer: Other musicians, or just... Billy: Yeah, I have friends in this band, Catherine, and they've played with me. And, you know, that's it really, how I think about it. No one else has really played. It's basically my friends from Catherine, one guy for one gig and one guy the other gig. And one gig Jimmy played and one gig James played. Interviewer: Where do you guys play when you do this? Both times.

Billy: One time it was at the Metro, one time it was at Dreamers. Interviewer: Do you like to tour?

Billy: I'm liking it more. Basically because I don't have to move equipment anymore. It's the drag of it, you know, that I don't like. Playing shows is so amazing. Our shows are just... I mean, they're just so completely out of control now. I mean, just... It's really, you know, it sounds like a real James thing to say, but they're really turning into these kind of out of control, ritualistic, kind of more than a rock concert kind of shows. And it's really amazing. It's really getting into that amazing stage.

Interviewer: Are you guys like, I haven't seen you guys recently, obviously, are you guys really into the stage set up? Billy: No, we're very minimal at this point.

Interviewer: Bare bones, just music.

Billy: Get up on stage. Our manager's wanted us to take lights on our first tour and we absolutely refuse to. And then they want us to have this pretty duty psychedelic light show.

Interviewer: I think it's more powerful without...

Billy: Well I think at this point it is. I think if you're playing the four thousand people...

Interviewer: Can I get another beer please? Can I get another beer?

Billy: Can I have some hot tea? I think if you're playing the four thousand people, you need to...a little more than like sweat. But you know we play clubs, you know like 500 people. Everybody can see you, everyone can see the way, you know what I mean? And there is a real power in just getting up on stage and playing and connecting with people in a straight one-to-one way.

Interviewer: So is it a show for you? I mean is it an aspect of your personality that doesn't come out at all? Or is it?

Billy: I've had a lot of people say to me that they don't recognize me on stage. I'm really like. I've not hung up about a lot of things. So the difference between like me sitting at this table and me on stage doesn't seem that different to me. Interviewer: I was going to say now that I know you I'll have to uh, I'll have to tell you what I see there.

Billy: I just, being on stage amplifies whatever aspect of you is out at the moment. You know if the monster is at the mic, you know I start telling people to fuck off and you know that whole thing starts and you know he's near a riot. You knw antagonistic situations where we want to jump up the stage and kill us. Other times, charming, funny, it amplifies because it's like anything, the situation is focused and it's a microcosm, 45 minutes an hour and this hour leaves such a vast impression. What does one hour of your daily life leave an impression on you? You probably don't even remember what you did some of the hours of today. But that one hour leaves a vast impression to the attention span in the audience is high. You've got this fucking...

Interviewer: It's total focus.

Billy: Electric energy. So when you make a joke, it's probably funnier. Right. Every gesture is grander. Interviewer: So when you were in Europe, what... Were you just in the UK or did you go...

Billy: We only played two shows. We played Rotterdam, this big, huge festival.

Interviewer: How was that? What's playing a festival? When I talked to Buffalo Tom last year, they were talking about a festival that they played and that was like...

Billy: Well, it wasn't an outdoor. It was an indoor. It was an indoor. indoor festival, there were four rooms going, and this night, there were two nights. The night we played, in one room Nick Cave was reading poetry, in the other room Nine Inch Nails was playing, and then this other room Nirvana's playing, and then we're playing in this room with Sonic Youth, you know, it was just like, it was just like total insanity. Too much, you know, it was almost a crime that there was all this good music going on, and not even enough time to go see it all. It was cool. obviously bigger. Interviewer: What did you think of Europe in terms of their response? Janet was just like, you know how Janet is, I was so surprised at the victim. You know, I'm like, why? To me it seems like it would totally be their thing, you know?

Billy: You know, I mean, I'll contend this until the day I die, but everyone was worried about like it how we were going to be perceived in Europe. Everyone was worried before our album came out how we were going to be perceived in America. I mean, I just look at it like there are things about our band, our music, the way we play live that transcend genre, you know what I mean? It goes beyond being a rock band in a corner. It becomes something bigger than that. And to a lot of people, our album is bigger than any other album they have. It means more to them, it strikes a chord, and the way we play live and the emotion that transfers between the band and the audience. Even though it's a really weird thing, I haven't quite figured it out yet. I just think it transcends, and I think, I'm not saying that we are a great band, I don't think we have achieved our potential yet. But I think that's the earmark of a great band is transcendence. A show doesn't feel like a normal rock concert. You can go to a hundred concerts and only one or two will really give you the notes like you feel like you've been fucked, you know? That's what rock is supposed to do. It's based and rooted in sexuality and that's the way you should walk out. You should feel like you've had this orgasmic, incredible experience. The best concerts I've ever seen, it's like, I'm devastated.

Interviewer: That's why I'm psyched to see Nirvana this weekend. It's like... one of the shows, because I saw them two years ago when they were touring with Tad, I just want to go in and have my head blown out. Billy: Right. That's what you're paying for.

Interviewer: But, you know, that's what you hardly ever get. You know? And it's, I mean, I've had that experience in basement parties where friends of mine just get together and jam. And then I'll go see your show here. I mean, I've been to so many shows in the last two years, I can't even, I don't even remember. But the shows that I remember that blow me away. ???? I don't know what it is though. I mean, you know, now that you bring that up, there's something else.

Billy: There's something else. It goes beyond like people standing in a corner playing their guitars, singing their songs. You know, who can put a gauge on it? Obviously you can't bottle it.

Interviewer: Well, yeah, and I mean, like going to see Jane's Addiction, which is supposed to be the most massive experience anybody's supposed to have, you know, and I've seen like three times the first record, or when I hear the strains from the single from their last record. Like I was saying before, it calls back a certain experience or where you first heard that song or where I first heard one of your songs or like the first time I saw your video on MTV on Headbanger's Ball. I had just moved here and I was staying with a friend of mine. She's like, oh, Smashing Pumpkins, I love these guys. And I'm like, they have a video. We just had gotten done seeing a rap video. I'm like, what is going on? It was really weird. I go to shows, I don't know if it's like a Jada thing, my dad's a musician, like yours, and he doesn't do it anymore in the respect of like the rock thing but I grew up around that and around him just going, oh, you've got to hear this song. And he was just playing music when I was a little kid. Rod Stewart, you've got to hear it. Great melody. Blah, blah, blah. So I grew up wanting that from everything. You want it from everything, but you're just not going to get it from going to see, I can't even think of a really bad show. Or somebody like the Blake babies that just don't get me. It's kind of like, well, this is OK. Or Run West You Run, who? Like they had one show last year that rocked me for days.

Billy: I saw them open here for solo signing. They were fucking amazing. And I've seen them other times and it was like... But this one show I saw, I mean, totally amazing. They uh... You forget where you are.

Interviewer: That was how it was. It's really weird because I saw them play at the Caboose in Minneapolis. And they were headlining, I forget who opened for them, but it was like...you know everything was great the lights you know they have like I don't know if they had a smoke machine or dry ice or something but it was just for a couple signs they had a strobe light for another one and you know when you feel your hair stand on end you know and I'm drinking red stripe and I'm sick and I'm still having this like hot time you know it's like that's all I talked about for days but there are other times I've seen him like you guys are terrible you know and when they open here for fire hose they weren't that great you know it's kind of like Or when I listen to their record I'm like, you know, there's more. They've just lost one of their guitar players too. He quit. So they have some guy from Magnolias or Toadstool or both I guess filling in for them. But it's just not the same. But I guess I think all the good bands are capable of having shows like that. But that's why, when are you guys playing? You guys are playing here in November?

Billy: November 20 something.

Interviewer: With the Chili Peppers? Are you doing two shows? Are you doing two shows or just one?

Billy: I only know about one. The Arrogance, I probably would be willing. It's five thousand people.

Interviewer: So what about that? I mean, are you, how did you hook up with the Chili Peppers? I heard Nirvana was gonna get that gig, actually. The opening gig for Nirvana.

Billy: I hadn't heard that. I hadn't heard about other bands. Interviewer: I think everybody who came in was in the mix.

Billy: People hear about it, but you know what, every time something comes up, it's always like 10 bands and you know what I mean? I don't know if we got it by default or you know, I heard there were bands trying to buy on that tour, like actually pay to be on it. So I think we were chosen because they wanted to have us on. We turned on the Pixies tour. Interviewer: Really? Yeah. Yeah, that wasn't...Maybe I heard their new record.

Billy: Yeah, I like it a lot. You like it? It's okay.

Interviewer: It hits me a lot better than the last one. Exactly. It's long. That would probably be my only complaint is that it is long. May I like records that are like...8-9 songs. Billy: There's a point.

Interviewer: Where, you know, it's like, you know, there's a band, there's kind of like a thrashability band called the Cadillac Tramps, they just played here. I've been onto their thing for a while and I really like them, but their record is too damn long. It's too damn long. After like the 12th song, I'm like, alright, or I'll start at five and then go to 14. You know, it's got 14 tracks, and it's like, you know, whatever, I can't take it. And I don't know if that kind of lack of attention span is really bad. I just think after a while... I'd rather listen to the same record twice in a row than listen to 14 songs that are different sometimes. When the Pixies were another show where I really felt like, wow. And I'd seen them before and it didn't do that to me, but there was something about their show that was just really, really great.

Billy: Anyway, the point I was making when I said that was that, I mean, the people in Europe are no different than the people in America. It didn't matter where they were from. Interviewer: Why do you think everybody has this preconceived notion that they're going to be such a hard audience? Because I think people pay a lot more attention to alternative music. Criticism is higher in the press than any criticism you get here. I mean, if you're going to get criticized in the press here, we're going to get criticized on a national level, where people are really going to care. You know, there you've got the weeklies. If they're going to trot on you, they're going to trot on you for weeks and weeks and weeks. When they take after you, and everyone was afraid we were going to get trounced, it just didn't happen.Our live shows have really shut a lot of critics up.

Interviewer: Right. I'm psyched to see, are you guys going to be playing like newer, new material?

Billy: Yeah, some people will get really mad at us because we won't play certain genres. I'm purposely concentrating on certain aspects of what we do now just because I'm more concerned about impact than anything else. I mean, we are strictly in maximum impact mode because 90% of the people that are seeing us have never seen us before. I want to leave a footprint on their brain so that they'll always come back for more.

Interviewer: Do you tailor your show for a city? Do you tailor a show for a city?

Billy: Sometimes, yeah. You have, you're... So, like... I mean, put it this way, when you're in Salt Lake City, you're going to be a little more inclined to stretch out a little more. And when you're in LA, you're going to go for the fucking throat, because you know there's people there... Who have a lot... I mean, whether you like it or not, there are people in cities like New York and LA who are so influential that their one little opinion...can really be detrimental. So when we play cities like New York and LA, we go for the fucking road. I mean, this is the way that it is. And when you're in the middle of the country, you're not as hung up about it. In some ways, those are the best gigs, because you're relaxed and you're showing people more than one side. We've probably only been showing people like a couple sides of us, but it's been a pretty heavy duty couple sides of us. Interviewer: What's a rehearsal like for you guys? How long do you guys usually do? Billy: About three hours. It's just us going over new songs. It's basically me scratching my head. A lot of like, man, I can't get this together

Interviewer: Is that where a lot of the arguments come out? It's in rehearsal? It's a lot like a relationship, I think, like a really close friendship or a relationship that you have with a boyfriend or girlfriend, I think. Because you can get mad at somebody and know that that's just part of the deal.

Billy: The other day at practice, you know, James is sitting in a chair, you know, he's not standing up, which shows that he's demotivated to begin with. He's sitting in a chair and, you know, we go, we're like, we're trying to work on this one part of a song. We're trying to change something, you know, and you go, okay, do the part four times and then we'll do this change. start the song. You do the part four times, you come to this new change, and he blows the change. Ah fuck You start again, you do it again. I mean, he knows exactly why you're doing this, to practice this one little thing. You do it again, he blows the change again. You know what I mean?

Interviewer: So you just go like, alright, alright, alright. No, you just start screaming, because it's like, why are you there? Why are you there? If you don't want to be there, go home. Don't waste it.

Interviewer: Have people gone home?

Billy: Never. We've had storm out, stomp your feet out, arguments. We've had practices end in the middle of practice, but. I mean, no one's ever so out of line that it gets to the point of like choosing sides. I don't know. You have to get over things so fast. You just don't have time to dwell. You don't have time to hold righteous. There's just no time. It happens and it's over with because you've got 10 other things to deal with the next day.

Interviewer: So after you practice, do you go home and play guitar? Or do you go home and write? We are more interested in you away from the musician thing or finding out other things that influence you as a musician that art music, like books.

Billy: Reading.

Interviewer: What do you read?

Billy: I never read fiction. I mainly read autobiographies and biographies. Philosophical type books. Stuff like William Burroughs. Just fucked up kind of things. It's all kind of interrelated to this kind of sub-drug consciousness. I don't know what you want to call it. It's that sub-drug consciousness that attracts you to things like, I don't want to sound cliche yuppie, but things like David Lynch. You're attracted to those types of films and you're attracted to those types of books and you're attracted to certain types of music because it appeals to that. Interviewer: What shaped you in that direction? It might sound like kind of a weird... into this kind of question, but like, was it like your high school experience? What was that like? You know, you know, Diane, Diane says that you're probably pretty much the same now in a lot of ways that you were then.

Billy: Oh yeah. You know. I was just a geek in the long place. My personality was so strong that I couldn't, I couldn't blend, you know. It's like, it's Henry Miller, you know, I'm not a totally Henry Miller, but I don't know how much you know about Henry Miller, you know, but a lot of people stand on Henry Miller as like the voice of their consciousness, which Henry Miller was a little too extreme. I'm a little happier than that. But there's this one thing I was reading with Henry Miller. He was talking about like, no matter how much he smiled and how many jokes he told, there was always this element in him that made people work easy. And that really struck a chord with me because as long as I can remember there's always this element in me that makes people really uneasy. I think it's just the fact that they can feel me staring through them. I just, I stare through people and it makes them really uncomfortable.

Interviewer: Do you make friends easily?

Billy: Um, yeah. Um.

Interviewer: I mean for the right reasons, not for the wrong ones. I mean I'm sure you've got a lot of friends, like people who want to be around you for the Star Power thing, but... No, I'm... I'm... Billy: I pretty much like everybody because I think I can really relate to people on their own terms. I mean, my father being a musician, I got to know lots of different types of people, you know? Like, outcasts of society. And a lot of people say that I surround myself with freaks. People that only I can appreciate. Like, I have this friend Nick. Everybody in the world thinks he's... I mean he is pretty much insane. He's totally crazy, he's like crackhead now, you know. He's on his way to death. You know, he's totally... I mean, he's totally an out of control person. Everybody I know cannot stand him. And I was on really... I'm really one of the few people who can relate to him because I think I can understand, you know, I just, I find that part in myself that can relate to that part in himself, and that's how I relate to people. So I pretty much like everybody, but I just, um... It's hard to explain what it is I don't like about them.

Interviewer: So you can even like everybody but still hold part of yourself away from them too?

Billy: Yeah, there's very few people that I actually, you know... I just don't believe in having one-sided relationships with people, you know. There has to be something there that you can share, you know. I mean, I used to just give myself away to anybody, and I don't do that anymore. Interviewer: Was it being hurt or was it being misunderstood or not getting something out of it?

Billy: Just realizing that everyone is not like you. There's a lot of people who don't care. They just don't care. They don't care that their life is going to be boring. They just don't care. Or if they do care, they got it tucked away in some corner of their psyche. Interviewer: That's why I asked you what it was like going back to where you came from. Like going back to Glen Ellyn.

Billy: Yeah. I don't know, I just, I don't allow myself to feel it, you know? I can't feel sorry for people who have doomed themselves.

Interviewer: But you can befriend them, obviously. Yeah, but, I mean, I'm the type of person that came from a situation that when people saw me doing okay would say, boy, we really thought you were going to be really fucked up. We're so amazed that you're not strung out on drugs. I mean, you know, my situation at home was that crazy and fucked up and blah blah blah. I had plenty of excuses to be a loser and for a while I pretty much was. But you know, I stopped living a lie and stopped pretending that God was going to grant me some gift out of the sky and I set myself onto a task.

Interviewer: How old were you when that happened?

Billy: When I started to feel like that?

Interviewer: Well, when you got out of it, I mean...I mean I can kind of relate to that whole feeling sorry for yourself and just waiting for somebody to tail you out kind of thing. Yeah. But so how old were you when you said, well, obviously...

Billy: 19.

Interviewer: Yeah. You didn't go to college, did you? Or did you? Billy: no. I knew I didn't want to go to college because I knew I wanted to play music. I had this kind of fucked up year and a half where I went through 30 girls. This lost year and a half where I pursued this endless trail of nothingness. I just can feel what it felt like to be in Florida, to have no money. There's no girlfriend to lean on. I had nothing. I mean, I barely had a band.

Interviewer: Where were you in Florida?

Billy: St. Petersburg.

Interviewer: I lived there for 10 years. Not in St. Petersburg, but in Florida.

Billy: You know, I was living on a floor, you know, in a storefront, you know, non-existent person, and I used to go visit this guy. He had a clothing store and I just remember walking up one day and he had this, you know, I kind of consider myself this guy's kind of friend, you know. I come and talk to him. Well, he had this new friend, like this guy he just met, he knew him like three days, you know. And I walked up and this new friend, like they both turned to me and the new friend looks up at me and says, oh, it's the nowhere man. And they both kind of chuckled. You know, like, and that was just one of those symbolic moments where you just realize that you are nothing. You don't mean anything to anybody. You don't even mean anything to yourself. And that was really when it started. It took me a long time, but it really started to... I mean, I had it in me, you know. You have to have it in you. You have to have that desire. I mean, you know, I could have gone home, cut my hair. I could have come back here, cut my hair, got a normal job. And life goes on, you know. But I was determined and I just...I just think a lot of people, and I have known a lot of people that they just cannot step back from their own person and their own little high drama of a life and realize what it is they want and what it is they really want and make the sacrifices to do that. I mean, I'm finally reuniting with my family, but I lost two-thirds of my family. It's disowned from everybody. You know, just, you know. I just didn't give it up. It's hard to explain, you know? It's just so fucked up, you know, because I think so different now. It's hard to believe that, you know, you think, how could I have been so stupid? Interviewer: When you came back here,

Billy: so I just want to say this I mean that's why when people question Pumpkins people question me. It's like I've got that. I've got that real strength that They can't take away.

Interviewer: Well, you know

Billy: Well, but it's not even like it's not even like a know thing. It's just like you've got this rock in you That's real. You know you you You've suffered, you know, I mean, you know, my suffering was not, you know, this, this fake teenage drama suffering. It was real suffering. I still paid for it and my pain is real. And that's why anybody can say what they want about my band or the music that I write, but I am myself, you know, call me whatever you want, but I am the person I am.

Interviewer: Are you your music?

Billy: Oh, yeah, definitely.

Interviewer: So that's you that we're hearing. Billy: I don't think I've completely established my musical identity to the point where I think it's completely separate. That's my inner kind of goal is to push the music into an area that distinguishes it really apart. I think lyrically in a lot of ways I've done that, I think singing-wise I've done that, and I just think in terms of attitude I've done that. But the music is still... I've got to push it even further away. It's just really hard to do when you're... You play loud and rock.

Interviewer: So you're 24?

Billy: 24.

Interviewer: When will you be 24?

Billy: Uh, March 17. In eternal Pisces. Interviewer: Like my brother. That's, yeah, I would have never guessed. Billy: I mean, I was born to be a loser, you know. I was born to be one of those guys that was too smart and had too much talent and just didn't do anything. Have you ever known anybody like that? Interviewer: My boyfriend? Probably, exactly. I really wanted him to come because, you know, you hear from varying people, oh, Billy Corgan, what an asshole, oh, he's really great, or... I just think a lot of people kind of... I mean, I'm dogged with all this press that I have, and other people who are publicists at labels who are also writers like Mark Woodley, who have known you or talked to you in the past. Or people who hate you and don't know you, like some friends of mine. They hate your guts, or they hate your band, which basically, you know, they hate you. And it's like... I totally understand that. I'm the same way myself in some ways. I don't, I mean I identify with what you're saying. I can't say that I have suffered, I've had my own personal trauma that might seem trivialized.

Billy: But see, I don't even look at it like that. All you, you know, you know it's like I was watching this thing on TV and the guy was talking about you're born alone, you die alone. You know what I mean? No. The majority of time that you spend in your life is spent alone. And you have those inner thoughts and those inner desires and inner pulses that a lot of people let die. They are so out of touch with the person that they really are. And there's nothing more. It's so sad to see someone who's like broken, you know? You know what I mean? The events of their life and the situation and having to have money, they just broke them. That's the kind of person my dad is. He's broken. It's like he just like fixes cars, you know? I mean, there's nothing more disheartening to see someone who has such great potential and has just fucking given it up or lost it or given it away. And that's what I'm saying. No one can take that away from me. No one will. No one ever will. They can say whatever they fucking want.

Interviewer: Is your dad proud of you?

Billy: Yeah, he's cool.I think he is, but it comes with a lot of baggage. It comes with an awful lot of baggage.

Interviewer: No, I say that because.. I see my dad as the same way. He's 45 years old I think now.

Billy: My father's 43 or something so.

Interviewer: But my dad's like, when he quit music, it was more because of my mom. My mom was just kind of like, you've got to quit. You've got two kids. Whatever and So he quit, and he didn't want to quit, but he did. So I feel some sort of responsibility for that, even though I just like him quit and he would still do music. We had the cops called on us a million times, you know, because my dad would like plug in, in this nice neighborhood, suburban Minneapolis, you know, and like my dad would be crazy or I'd come home from work at one o'clock in the morning, my dad would be drunk playing this guitar because he might have had a fight or something, which rarely happened but it never scared me. I always kind of understood like why I was doing it. But he is broken in that way. You know, my mother lives vicariously through me in a different way. When she was 19, she had me. I'm 23.

Billy: That's funny because it's the same age my parents had me. Yeah.

Interviewer: I'm 23 now, and I have no kids, and I have this job, and I write, and blah, blah, blah. She thinks that's really cool, and keep going, and don't give that up. And my dad's just like, he's really proud of me. At the same time, he's like, don't forget what makes you human like relationships, you know, like I went through a billion guys, you know, like what you were saying, 30 different girls or whatever. You know, I went through a bunch of different guys, never found what I was looking for, or found almost, gave it up, you know, and it's like...

Billy: Sounds pretty similar.

Interviewer: Yeah, it's like, but then you find it, you know, and I moved away from it when I moved here which was a problem because there have been a lot of fights. I mean, he and I are both very much individuals, just like two very selfish, kind of artistic people trying to be in a relationship together and trying to give. And it's hard to give when the other person's not giving, you know, because- Billy: You're selfish yourself.

Interviewer: Well, yeah, I mean, you're just, you know, when you're that selfish and you're just used to things coming to you, certain things from other people, it's really hard. And, you know, but he moved down here, you know, and he gave up a lot for that which was pretty amazing. And it's, like seeing my dad the way he is, and just like, yeah, I'm really proud of you, don't, you know. do you want to do anything that means getting married and having a kid that's great or if it means...

Billy: unless I haven't gotten that kind of support

Interviewer: yeah it's weird my mom does not support that at all they were just here this weekend and my mom really likes Dan and everything but you know she's like oh you know she just passes it off as maybe something else I'm like I've been with this guy for seven months which is like seven years to me you know like you have to understand this is a big deal you know and my dad is just like pretty cool with it and my brother's like totally mainstream He's like 19, lives in Arizona, plays golf, you know, whatever. He has never heard of you or any of the other music that I talk about and he just, you know, but I don't think my dad gets anything from him. They don't fight. I fight with my dad all the time. We argue about stuff. I tell him he sells out and he gets really mad, you know, like you sold out. You totally gave in, you know. Why ? and like I did it for you you know and I'm like well fuck I would have been really glad if you would have stayed a musician and we could have lived together.

Billy: I got like the same trip.

Interviewer: You know, would you have been glad if your dad had stayed a musician though? I mean it's like I would love to like but I wouldn't have turned out the way I have. It would have been a completely different I might have hated it while it was happening you know looking back it's always like perfect. Billy: I lost a lot just by him the virtue of playing anyway. Interviewer: Did he just play out around here? Was he like everywhere?

Billy: He played nationally, but it was more in the context of a band that would come in, I mean this is more like a 70s type of thing, but would come into a town and would play like a week at a place. And he would come and have a good time and dance. Not like a dance thing, like a rock kind of bass thing, but still very much involved in people pleasing. Interviewer: Do you want to get close to him again?

Billy: I don't know. I don't really know. It's a really hard question for me to answer.

Interviewer: You might be a little too personal too. I'm sorry.

Billy: No, I don't mind talking about it at all. I mean, I have nothing to hide. It's just, um... He's hurt me in ways that he's never even understood me. And he's failed me as a father in a lot of ways. I mean, there's a lot of things he hasn't failed at. But some of the things that he failed at, I consider like almost basic necessities like these. And... I just, I never feel that I can approach him without him having his own agenda. I mean he's the type of person, he's the type of person that you'll say, the most fucked up thing happened to me. And you'll tell him the story and he doesn't even absorb. And before he even thinks about it, he's telling you some story of his. You know, like a story that tops your story. There was this one time that was fucking these six chicks and you know what I mean? It's like, it's just like, I can't compete on that level. I wish you would just accept it at the level that I...

Interviewer: That's like friends. It's like friends that I have or…

Billy: But you know what I told him once? I said if you were my friend, you wouldn't be my friend.

Interviewer: Okay. But I'm talking friends like the queens. Oh, yeah. Like my roommate. That's what you were saying. Okay. But I mean like real friends, okay whatever, they wouldn't do that. But like my roommate or whatever, you know, I don't know her. I just don't get whether or not I'm here, you know. She...tell her, uh, this fucked up thing happened at work today, or I feel this way now, you know, I'm really lonesome, or I feel bereft because, you know, I have none of what I had in Minneapolis or whatever, and she's just like, oh well, blah blah blah blah blah. She's from Riverside, California, Total Val, you know, whatever. I'm like, I just let her talk. Let her talk, go in my room and write it down. Write it on the bus, write it wherever I can, you know. It just, it's just, because...I think to a lot of people, other people don't make a difference. I mean, I can relate to what you're saying about your dad, because my mom's the same way. She won't top it with another story. She'll just nod and smile and keep reading. It's kind of like, well, I'm sorry you're a total workaholic, but if I told you that I had five abortions in last year, what would you do? Which I haven't, but just anything for the shock value, just to get something out of her. I mean, I can understand that. See what you're saying. But I love my dad because he's a musician. He totally, he doesn't like a lot of what I like, but he respects it.

Billy: Yeah, so my father does not respect the genre of music that I play.

Interviewer: Really?

Billy: Not at all.

Interviewer: Does he say it's not music?

Billy: Oh no, no. Or does he just hate it? He just picks out of it what he understands, and then to him that means that. Like he'll pick out the Hendrix part of it or something. And then he just, you know, he uses that as an equation to say that I'm not doing anything different.

Interviewer: I don't think it's bad to let your musical influences come through though. I think at some point though you have to grow beyond them. There are parts in your music, I was just telling Dan today, there are parts in your music where it sounds like you should be doing something. Like if you did this one thing that you're not doing it would be a Hendrix song. Like in Rhinoceros there's a part where it would totally turn into Hey Joe if you just did a certain thing. But you don't do it and that's what makes it totally original.

Billy: I mean, there's a point where you're just totally strapped by the medium, there's just no other way around it. That's why I have interest in samplers and things like that, because it's creating, you know, out of chaos and pieces of things.

Interviewer: You have to let me know when that happens, I'd love to see that, because that would be really cool.

Billy: And I'm trying to use something like that in working with a sampler and stuff to open up my mind to the possibilities of my own band. Interviewer: This guy I used to go out with, he plays with the Tar Babies. He's in another band called Booty Fruit that uses all samplers and stuff like that. And that's why he did it.

Billy: Which band?

Interviewer: Dan Bitney, the drummer. I've gone out with all drummers. If I ever go out with guys in the band, it's all those drummers, I don't know why. But he... He started this other band.

Billy: Don't like guitar players, huh?

Interviewer: No, that's not it.

Billy: No, I'm just saying, because there's some girls who always seem to go out with guitar.

Interviewer: Really? They wind up being drummers I don't even know. You know, it's kind of like, they'll be like, oh, I'm in this band. I'm like, really? What do you play drums? Of course you do. But he was really cool. We had the same birthday and stuff, so we always had some sort of cosmic thing or whatever. I still talk to him, but booty fruits is way more satisfying to him, I think, than the Tar Babies, just because it's taken like a totally I mean, Tar Baby is taking, you know, looking to blood, sweat and tears for influence, you know, he's just had it with that, you know. It's like, I've taken it as far as I can go, you know, so they do the sampler rap thing and whatever, and it's really good. Billy: Yeah, I mean, there's a point where you feel really, you feel your hands are tied by your own monster.

Interviewer: But see, in that band, it's not his monster, it's Bucky's monster. He's manic depressive. I mean, he's like how you are only more evil times three. You know? I mean, because everything in that band totally hinges on his mental state. You know, which the other guys smoke so much pot they don't care. Dan's a really talented musician, so he cares, but he smokes too much pot to forget about it.

Billy: He's a great drummer.

Interviewer: Yeah, he's really good. And he plays other things. I mean, he started out playing guitar. You know? And...It's just, it's weird. Musicians are like, are weird people in that sense. You know, but I really... I mean, I play guitar, but I don't... it's not an all-consuming... I don't get out of bed and go, where's my guitar? You know, nor do I go, where's my pen and paper? It's kinda like...

Billy: I used to. I mean, I used to try girls' knots. I used to like, fuck some girl and get out of bed and play guitar. Interviewer: It's too bad for them if it drives them nuts though. Did you ever meet a girl who understood that? That's what it is.

Billy: Yeah.

Interviewer: Do you go out with somebody now? Who gets it? I don't know. Let's go.

Billy: Kind of. Right. Long story. Some other time. That was the whole Melody Maker reference.

Interviewer: Oh, really? Yeah. Tell me about that. It's off the record if you want it to be. Well, I have to go to the bathroom. I'll tell you when I come back from the bathroom. I have to think of my party line here. OK. Billy: TV, it's made everything in these, you know, like there's a lot of magazines now that really represent that kind of mentality.

Interviewer: Oh yeah.

Billy: You know, look at what magazine is it? Like Cream or even Interview now. Interview used to be pretty good. You look at it now, there'll be a full page picture of somebody and three questions and three two sentence answers.

Interviewer: Yeah, that's, yeah. They do that. Cream does that. There's no like... See, I don't believe in demystifying, finding out what's behind a mystery. Billy: There's a fine line between mystery and star propagation.

Interviewer: Sure. Well, yeah. I mean, there's nothing wrong with finding out what's behind a mystery. It will still remain that. Any answer that you give is not going to completely explain everything to everybody. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Billy: People always want to know what my songs are about. I mean I'd have to sit down and tell them exactly what I was thinking. You know, they have those laser discs now. They have it on one channel, the laser disc, the director and the actor talking about the movie. I mean I'd have to do that. I'd have to be sitting there explaining my mentality.

Interviewer: But you know, why people would ever want to know that? Whatever. I mean, for your own information, that's great. Trying to explain that to, for us, 30,000 people. That's, to me, that's taking all the art out of writing. Or, you know, I mean you can make a feature or an interview into something really cool. You know?

Billy: There was this one article that this guy wrote even before our album came out. He was just talking about why he liked us. It was from Milwaukee. This magazine called Ricochet.

Interviewer: Spaceball Ricochet. Bill McClay. Yeah, I know him. It's cool.

Billy: And it was just like a two page thing. And in two pages, the guy really summed up what we do well. And it was just really nice to read. And I thought that was so effective. It wasn't even an interview, really. He had a couple quotes from me that he taught to me after the gig. He really managed to sum up the base sexual element and the push and pull of our music and the tease part of it.

Interviewer: That's funny then I would tell you that your records good to fuck too because that's a base that you I mean you brought that up a couple times while you were in college now that your music

Billy: It's it's sexual based I mean

Interviewer: I think most rock music is I think people get away from that really easily Or they go for the obvious like the lyric That's always obvious. You know like the way you please me your baby You know anything on the blaze that you hear you know your music or your lyrics aren't overtly sexual or even covert

Billy: It's more sensual. Yeah, exactly. But at its base, it's just sexually related. But you know, you know, foreplay. It's just like, you know, a kiss. I mean. Some people just wanna fuck, they don't wanna even kiss. Yeah. I appreciate a good kiss. People just want, no, they just want you to give everything away and…

Interviewer: So that's like what I think like when you're saying that in interviews or people want to demystify everything, it's like almost, you know, alright, let's cut through the bullshit, let's fuck. So they're like, let's cut through the bullshit, what is your album title? What are you saying in your lyrics? I don't care. I appreciate what I get out of it from my own personal standpoint. I don't want you to rain on my parade. I hate it when artists rain on my parade. That's why I never ask the questions.

Billy: I mean, I just look at it like... You know? I just look at it like... When someone is kissing you or touching you, they're not telling you how to feel. They're offering you a stimulus and then you take that stimulus and it pushes you where you want it to go or how far you'll let yourself go. I'm there to provide an oral impetus, have you? And people can take it for whatever they want. If they just want to hum along, fine. If they really want to... People write me all the time. Please send me a lyric sheet. Well... Obviously I didn't want to include a lyric sheet and if you really want to know the lyrics put on some headphones and Press the rewind button and figure out what the fucking lyrics are. It's that important to you They want me to hand over my lyrics. Obviously. I didn't want to give them to em It's like you know wake up Everyone is so used to having everything handed in on the fucking silver platter Interviewer: I think what you were saying about TV

Billy: over over imaged, you know over everything. Your senses are completely bombarded.

Interviewer: But it's totally, but it's totally like, it's not a good bombardment. Like your video, okay, that bombards your senses and it kind of under... it's subtle. There's very little subtlety I think of anything. We saw the Madonna movie last night, we went to go see that.

Billy: That was a disgusting display.

Interviewer: When I came out of there, I felt like... No, whatever. I mean, I have followed what she's been doing for the last 10 years. Whatever. Whether she's got her first pin or whatever. But I feel sorry for her. I don't know if this is like her tour scrapbook to all of her dancers.

Billy: Did you feel sorry for her? I felt so sorry for her. Like, not even sorry like pity. Sorry like, you're living this dumb illusion of what you think you are.

Interviewer: Yeah, and she sits there and wonders why.. You know, like when she's telling me, Sandra Bernhard, I think I've met everybody I want to meet. I was like, that woman needs to go thrift shopping in northern Minnesota. That woman needs to go on a real road trip or something. She needs something. You know, I mean, I did pity her in a way, but it was in a sense of like, you... you know, made your bed, lying in it. To take her and now you need to take her.

Billy: It's not like she decided to be an opera singer or something. She decided to be a pop diva.

Interviewer: She got it. She's the best out of all of them, without a doubt. And I admire her for what she's done in terms of like women or whatever. But when I saw that movie, it was like, it was right there in front of you, but it wasn't even her. You know?

Billy: She lost a lot of ground with me with that movie.

Interviewer: And I had waited a really long time to see it. Everybody told me about it. And I had seen her video things, like on the music awards and all that stuff. And I was like, wow. And I saw it, and I was just kind of like, well, I still don't, it was weird. And it was all right in front of me, but it wasn't what I wanted. If it's going to be right in front of me, it may as well be for real. instead just a bunch of bullshit. All shot in black and white, four different kinds of film we've counted. You know, it'd be color for some.

Billy: You know, in a portrait like that, should've been a pretty portrait. For me, it took something away. It didn't add, it took it away. Interviewer: I mean, what I thought existed, I mean, I found out there was less of it than I even imagined there was. See, when I'm sitting here talking to you about these things, okay, whatever, you know, it's good and you're being real with me. If I had Madonna on the other side of the table, you know, that's why when I was asking you when you made your friends if you kept yourself away, I was singing you that movie because she's really close to her dancers and she throws this big party and writes a big poem for her assistant. But you can tell. She is not all there. Like when she meets her old friend again. Billy: Oh yeah, totally awkward.

Interviewer: She like, you can tell that she really cared about this person she had really fond memories, but she had to go, it was really awkward, she didn't know what to say. She was caught in a position where her past kind of confronted her and maybe caught her a little bit off guard and she wanted, so in order to rectify the whole situation she booed it. She just left. I didn't admire that at all. I know that was kind of fucked up, but yeah, it was a weird movie. But you know, you are a star in the sense that Madonna is not. She might have been, at one point in time, she might have granted a really solid, good interview. Or just had a conversation with the interviewer, you know. But now, no matter who she's talking to, a lover, her parents, her best friend, it's not even her. And that's what I feel sorry for, for. She doesn't even know anymore. I'm not feeling sorry for her. Like, God, you know, I wish things could have been different for her. It's not like that.

Billy: Oh, I know. I totally, everything you've said, I totally agree with.

Interviewer: It's just like, that's really a shame. Because I bet she has a lot to say if she could just cut through her own bullshit. She's built a wall around herself. This guy is a disheartening boy. I mean, I wouldn't mind getting the chance to meet her. Did you read the interviews that she did with Carrie Fisher and Rolling Stone? She was totally fucked up.

Billy: I was more interested in Carrie Fisher though. Carrie Fisher had more interesting things to say. Interviewer: She was funny. She asked questions, you know, and so that was like, thank you. Yeah, I've always liked Carrie Fisher. I just thought, you know, it was just really gratuitous. I didn't really enjoy that reading that at all. I was hoping for more, but I don't know why. Probably just more human. a man who killed a woman. Whatever. I was hoping for something. I didn't get it. I couldn't have done a better job. When your subject is so closed off to everything. Like I interviewed a long time ago, I interviewed the boo dolls. There's a lot like this, you know, sitting in, you have Cal and chatting, hanging out. The other two dudes leave and the main guy is still sitting there. And he's like totally unsolicited, starts going off about this girl that he had met in California. that the whole album, the last album that they did was about. I have like 45 minutes of him on my tape just going out about this whole thing. Talking about religion. I just sat there. I didn't say anything. And then one of the other guys comes back and he's like, you know, this is the best interview we've ever done. I'm like, yeah, because I didn't do anything. Those were the best ones. You know, you just hit play and let people talk. That's, I mean, I've talked a lot in this one, but that's because... I figured after talking to you on the phone a couple times that I could probably just talk to you. Billy: I'm not all I'm made out to be.

Interviewer: I never thought you were. I never thought, I was like, I'm really nervous, I'm going to go interview this asshole now, hell, what am I going to do? It was never like that, it was kind of like, because you got so much flack I was really interested in talking to you. Because I would have made my own judgment after meeting you. I don't judge asshole, that's not... You and I are a lot alike, like a lot of other people I know. There's a lot of people in our age group are like this, you know, just kind of like... We're all outcasts and we're all trying to do our own thing, happens to be music related... Or art related.

Billy: I'm an asshole because I haven't backed down, you know, I'm an asshole because... I've done it my way, you know.

Interviewer: You believe in what you're doing too. I mean, I don't sense any compromise at all. And that's why I hate working at the label. I could totally compromise myself by working for a label. I like maybe two bands on the label. And not even like, like I'm going to go home and listen to them, but like I go see them or something. And get drunk, do ecstasy, I don't know, whatever. Just go see them. But also being in an environment where nobody else likes them either. So I'm in this environment where everybody is, we're supposedly promoting these bands and trying to get people interested in them and nobody gives a shit. Nobody gives a flying fuck about anything.